i noticed after being a jw for a while that many members of my congregation were having to take antedepressants.
(i counted at least 30 out of 100).
after a few years i too began to have bouts of depression and problems with anxiety.
To Lilybird:
I actually felt physically ill about your case!
It is just not right!!!!
How can they treat you like that?? In the name of Jehovah!? Sometimes I think JW's put Jehovah where he is not, and put Satan in there instead!
Are you wicked and evil? Is your mom? Are you apostate? Obviously NO!
Does your life feel like it is being played out on the stage set up by God and the W.T.? Isn't it time to end this dictatorship? Spiritaully OR Otherwise?
Rod P.
hi people!
i am new here, but started out on the topic of "high rates of depression in org.
" there are 3 posts, one of which has been pasted below on my new thread.
Hey People!
I haven't forgotten you.
I still have to make a living, so need to book off a few days.
Also, I have been surfing a few other good threads, and had to stick my two cents in here and there.
Will get back next week.
LOL
Rod P.
some big fat liar made sumthin up again!
looky here what i went and found in the bible!
remember that little dove that desended down on jesus right after he was baptised by john?
O.K. Gumby. You got a good one there. Why do I get the feeling you just pulled off a kind of "sneak attack" on us all? Heh heh.....!
As Superman said to Lothar while he was being shot into outer space after just having been immobilized by kryptonite, "I'll be back!"
Regards, and touche!
Rod P.
some big fat liar made sumthin up again!
looky here what i went and found in the bible!
remember that little dove that desended down on jesus right after he was baptised by john?
I am another one of those Newbies.
But hey, you guys are a riot. I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants. (Just joking!)
Now, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but let's at least try to get the story straight, and also try to do so in plain English. A number of you have basically done that already, except it is still a little tricky to follow. I think part of the problem is that we need to set out the verses in Mark and John for all to see, and then try to see what's going on and why the accounts apparently contradict one another.
"A Christian" appears to me to have the best clarification so far, but that's just how it looks to me.
I am, Heavens to Mergatroid, going to quote these two accounts (John and Mark), and then go on to try to make sense of things clearly and logically, being well aware that finding a unanimity of opinion is probably unattainable.
All Quotations are from the Revised Standard Version.
In John 1:19 it says:
And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him "Who are you?"
[In other words, the Pharisees sent the priests and Levites to John to find out who he was. He was going around baptising people, and if John was not Christ or Elija or the prophet, they wanted to know why he was baptising (verse 25). John explained that he was none of these (verses 20, 21)]
John 1:29:
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
[It was "the next day" (i.e. after this meeting with the priests and Levites) that John saw Jesus coming toward him, and so John pointed out to them that this was the one he had been talking about (verse 1:30) with them the day.]
John 1:35,36:
The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples;
and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"
John 1:37:
The two disciples heard him say this, and they followed Jesus.
The account goes on to explain that Jesus turned and saw them following, and asked what they wanted, and they asked him where he was staying. He invited them along, and they stayed with him that day (verses 38, 39). The rest of the chapter goes on to identify the ones who had been following- Andrew and his brother Cephas, who Jesus named Peter. Then he finds Phillip, and tells him to follow Jesus as well. Phillip then finds Nathaniel, and Jesus has discussion with him.
John 2:1:
On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples.
[In summary then, John meets with priests and Levites on a certain day. The next (1st) day after that meeting, Jesus comes out of the Wilderness, and John explains to these guys that here is the Lamb of God. The next (2nd) day after that meeting with the priests and Levites, that John is with a couple of disciples and shows them Jesus as the Lamb of God and they follow. The next (3rd) day from that meeting with the priests and Levites there was the marriage at Cana.
Now, the story in the Book of Mark is an entirely different matter. Mark is telling the account about John the Baptist who was busy baptizing all the people who were coming to him from Judea and Jerusalem (Mark 1:4, 5) John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:5:
And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
John was also preaching that someone was coming who was greater than he was, who would baptize them with the Holy Spirit, whereas John had baptized them with water (Mark 1:7,8)
Mark 1:10-13:
And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased."The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness.And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him.
The next verse is important:
Mark 1:14:
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Gospel of God,
So comparing these two accounts of Mark and John, let us try to reconstruct the logical sequence of events:
1) In Mark, Jesus gets baptized by John, has the Holy Spirit descend upon him, and immediately goes into the Wilderness for 40 days..... Now, let's say that 40 days have past.
2) John is out there preaching and talking to the priests and the Levites who are checking him out. This took place at the end of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness. In fact, it was the very next day, after the meeting with the priests and Levites, that Jesus showed up, whereupon John presents him as the Lamb of God to his disciples (John 1: 35, 36)
Then Mark 1:14 goes on to say:
"Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God."This would have taken place after the marriage of Cana. After John was arrested, Jesus began his Galilean Ministry, calling Simon Peter, Andrew, James and John to come follow him.
lol
Rod P.
i noticed after being a jw for a while that many members of my congregation were having to take antedepressants.
(i counted at least 30 out of 100).
after a few years i too began to have bouts of depression and problems with anxiety.
To Rosemary:
Thank you for your comments. Happy Birthday to you; and I hope you have a good one!
I too have studied the Gospel of Thomas, which is generally considered part of the "pseudepigrapha". There are quite a number of "books" which are included in this pseudepigrapha which many churches, including W.T., do not regard as part of "Inspired Scripture", and they certainly have their reasons for saying so. It is a vast topic to get into. However, in the case of the Gospel of Thomas, there is an important truth revealed therein that is so powerful, I believe the Catholic Church may even fear it, because if too many know about it, they may not have a Church left. That "Truth" is the fact that you do not have to have a Church or External Organization to find the Kingdom of God. It is to be found inside you. There you will find what you are looking for. I believe there is historical evidence that there were some ulterior motives for the Gospel of Thomas not to be allowed to be included with the Scriptures. So Rosemary, you are definitely on to something, whether you realize it or not. In the days ahead I will have much to say about this Gospel, but it will be on my own thread. Yet I am in no way trying to convert you to something. Just sharing some things I know about, and will recommend you examine a few other things as well along the same lines. I found it all very exciting. This was one of the things that helped my in my battle with depression.
God Bless!
Rod P.
that comment has been made a number of times.
since jehovah loves those he disciplines, short of stoning one, this is god's way of saying, i love you"......stupid, huh?
To ScoobySnax:
No, am not not still a Mormon either.
If you want to know the story, please go to "Personal Experiences & Reunions" and then click the topic "X-JW, X-Mormon & More OR: Around the World's Religions in 60 Years". It is still a "Work-in-Progress" but the first installment will give you an encapsulated account.
Rod P.
that comment has been made a number of times.
since jehovah loves those he disciplines, short of stoning one, this is god's way of saying, i love you"......stupid, huh?
Hi there! I'm one of the new guys "on the block"
I went thru Disfellowshipment back around 1967. I converted to the Mormon Church, and so my D'f was on the grounds of Apostasy. At least I found myself in a new situation with a lot of new friends, so did not really suffer on an immediate basis. I think that for people who are going thru Disfellowshipment, even if you are disassociating yourself from the JW's (rather than them doing it to you), it would be a good idea to have some people or friends or family members who are not JW to serve as your "Support Group". It is not a good idea to be all alone while this painful event is happening, and also afterwards. Otherwise you can sink into the depths of despair and depression, and find your life just falling apart. Some people can't handle this, and can even go so far as to end it all.
I know that for some people this may not really seem possible, since it may be that JW's are all they've ever known, such as being raised in it, and so they have no-one on the outside to give them support. It is very important to try and get help and also try to find some new friends outside of the organization. Being all alone and isolated is one of the worst states to be in, so try to change that. Refuse to be alone. Do something. Get out there and meet some people. Also, physical exercise can do a lot to combat depression. Get out there and enjoy nature, and the world will not look near as bad or bleak. I also think this whole forum can be helpful, because it can make you see that you are not alone. There is an awful lot of collective wisdom on this forum, I have recently discovered!
I have seen accounts of experiments with either monkeys or chimpanzees (I can't remember which), where the scientists would put one "monkey" in a cage in total isolation, and another one they held and nurtured the infant. Each received the same identical diet and feeding, and shelter and all of the basic necessities of life. In a short while, the one that was in isolation actually died. They are social creatures, and are not meant to be alone or isolated. Human beings are even more so in need of physical contact and companionship. It is very unnatural to be all alone, and it is one of cruelest forms of punishment to inflict isolation and ostracization onto another person. This is NOT love. This is cruelty of the worst kind, and when done deliberately, like the W.T. Society does, it is downright EVIL.
I know that the Society depends on the New Testament and the words of the Apostle Paul for their justification. Paul talks about those who, after having been give the Truth, they then turn their backs on it by their behavior. For those people, Christians are supposed to remove them from their midst, and not associate with them. I am going to try to deal with this whole issue with a view to putting this whole "myth" and misapplication to rest on this thread shortly. I do not believe the Society's position on Disfellowshipment can be logically justified and defended.
LOL
Rod P.
hi people!
i am new here, but started out on the topic of "high rates of depression in org.
" there are 3 posts, one of which has been pasted below on my new thread.
Episode #4
I couldn't wait for that first meeting with the Reverend. After exchanging background information, we agreed to discuss various JW doctrines over a number of weekly meetings, with the first one being the Soul Doctrine. Not being a JW yet , my objective here was to put JW teachings to the test with a minister and biblical scholar. His library seemed to me to be quite impressive, especially when it came to the various books of the Bible. My modus operandi was to study the JW publications on the doctrines, and to memorize the arguments and the scriptures applicable to each topic. This would all be done at home, and then we would meet at his place and have our discussions.
When we talked about the Soul, of course, it was to prove that the bible taught that man did not have an immortal soul, but that man was a soul made out of the dust of the earth (the elements), into which God breathed into man's nostrils the "breath of life" (the life force), "and man became a living soul". Ezekiel 18:4 stated that the "Soul that sins shall die." Also, "man has no pre-eminence over the beasts. As one dieth, so dieth the other." This discussion went on for some time, and the Reverend listened attentively, and did not interrupt. In the end, he stated that the United Church Scholars had also done a lot of research on this subject, and essentially they agreed with the JW position on this subject. I went away, thrilled with the confirmation that the doctrine the JW's were teaching on the Soul was the "Truth".
I do not recall the order of the topics we discussed during subsequent meetings. One of the subjects was "Baptism by Immersion". The Reverend agreed, and said that anyone who got baptized in the United Church, while baptism by sprinkling was generally the practice, if anyone wanted to be baptized by immersion, that was perfectly OK, and they would be accommodated. Well, it made more sense to me, that if Jesus Christ was baptized by full immersion, then we should do no less. Sprinkling was just not good enough. Again, I thought the JW's taught more "Truth" than the United Church did.
At another meeting, we talked about Hell. Hell (Gehenna) was not to be taken literally when it talked about fire, and the place where "the worm dieth not", but rather symbolically. The Bible taught that Hell (Hades) was the common grave of mankind. Again, the Reverend concurred, and that their scholars basically came to the same conclusions.
On the Trinity doctrine, the idea of Three Gods in One God, did not make good or logical sense. It made a lot more sense that God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were One in Purpose, rather than One in Nature, Essence or Being. While Christendom essentially teaches this concept, and the United Church is a part of this, still the Reverend did not have much to argue about respecting the JW stand on the Trinity.
When it came to the subject of Evolution, I argued that this vast and complex universe could not have come into existence from nothing and by mere random chance probability. There had to be a First Cause, and that is God. We went on to discuss some of the major premises of Evolution (eg. natural selections, survival of the fittest, mutations, missing links, etc.) and also some of the problems with carbon dating. I believed that Evolution was a false doctrine, and a throry that cannot be proven, and which required as much faith to believe in it as a Christian had to have to believe in God and the Biblical account of Creation. On this whole subject, the Reverend agreed with much about the fact that there was a God who created the Universe, but that no-one had all of the answere, and maybe God brough about Creation BY Evolution. In other words, the theory of Evolution maystill have a place in the big picture. I could see his point, but would have to think about it, and do some more research. I went home, all the more convinced that JW's had the "Truth". Still, I had doubts.
For a few weeks I attended the United Church services. I enjoyed his Sermons, and he always seemed to look at me in the audience to see how I was responding to his sermons. On one Sunday he invited me to come along with him to his 2nd Congregation in the Town of Irvine, a few miles east of Medicine Hat. I found it quite interesting, and enjoyed meeting a lot of farm people. Then the Reverend told me he was going away for a couple of weeks, and he needed someone to take his place by delivering sermons at his two congregations. He had one person for one Sunday already, and wondered if I would be willing to take the other Sunday. I agreed, and so now had to decide what the sermon should be. I had been receiving the Watchtowers and Awakes by subscription in the mail, and one of them had an article "Faith in Faith, is that Your Faith?" I felt that the United Church was too liberal and wishy-washy in their definitions of "Truth", and that their faiths should be more precisely and accurately defined. Too many people were simply going to Church and believing in Jesus Christ and their Church, yet really didn't know or understand what they believed. It became a "Faith in Faith". This article really brought the issue into focus, and basically "woke us up" to the need to define what our faith consisted of. I delivered the essence of those concepts in the sermon to those Congregations. When the Reverend returned, he advised that he received excellent reports on the responses to the sermons, and wanted to know what I said to them. I then told him about the contents.
As time went on, I expressed an interest in going to University and studying Hebrew and Greek. It would have meant that I would be doing it under the auspices or sponsorship of the United Church, and that essentially I would be in training for the Ministry. I most certainly wasn't convinced that the United Church was the be-all-and-end-all, but it would be a way for me to get into those halls of learning where I could become expert in Hebrew and Greek, which were the languages of the Bible at the time of the writing of the various books of the Bible. That way I would be equipped to understand the Bible as it was originally written, and be able to expertly decide the correct interpretations of scripture, and not have to depend on others to decide this for me.
Mom and dad knew that I had been meeting with the Reverend, and that I was attending Church on Sundays. One day, quite by surprise, I came home and found some members from the United Church visiting with mom and dad. They were talking to them, trying to get them to pledge money on a monthly basis in support of the United Church. This was all on the basis that I was attending there. This did not go over very well with mom and dad, and after that I made a decision to stop attending. They felt the Reverend was into this more for the money than anything else. Also, they said that if I became a United Church Minister, it would be quite a feather in his cap for the Reverend.
In a private conversation one night, dad told me that if I was going to go to University to become a Minister of the United Church, go ahead, but don't look to him to finance my way. I told him that I did not necessarily want to go to University to become a United Church Minister. Rather, I had to have a sponsorship from some Church to get into the religion faculty, and I wanted to study Hebrew and Greek so that in the end I would be in a position to prove from the Bible what really was the "Truth".
At that point, dad said that if I was on this great quest for "Truth" then to be fair and open and comprehensive about it, when I was done studying the Bible, I would also need to go to India and study Hinduism and Buddhism, and similarly visit other countries like China and Japan and the Continent of Africa, and study all of the other religions. Then and only then would I be in a position to decide what is the "Truth". Secretly I said to myself "Yes dad, I am willing to do even that!"
Dad then reminded me that he will die believing this (JW Teachings) was the Truth, but that he didn't have the guts to go back to it, because the minute he did, there would be a lot of conflict and arguing with Mother.
I did a lot of thinking about what dad had told me. I felt sorry for him, that he did not have the courage of his own convictions. I also thought about the fact that research showed whatever primary issues remained undealt with or left unresolved by a parent of one generation, the children usually end up having to deal with it in order to finally resolve it. I was determined to find the "Truth" and to KNOW that I had found it, even though my dad had just kind of gave up on everything!
Meanwhile, back at High School (Grade 12) there were a lot of serious subjects and exams to prepare for. I focused on that until the end of school. I began to "cool" on the idea of becoming a Minister for a Church I did not really feel committed to. This, by no means meant that I was going to abandon my search for "Truth". However, I had just completed two years of Electricity and Electronics, and had extremely high marks, and I really loved that field of endeavor. Since I was going to have to find a way to finance my own career, I applied for jobs at a couple of Banks for after, when I graduated from high school. I would save up the necessary funds to go to College or University, perhaps in the field of Electronics. At least that was the plan.
It was July 1961, only ten days out of school, and I found myself working at the Bank of Nova Scotia in downtown Medicine Hat. This was a whole new world to me, the world of Business. I had to learn bookkeeping and accounting principals, the law and economics and government and politics, and all kinds of things I knew nothing about. Most of all, I had to learn about the Banking business. I felt like a babe in the woods. My first pay cheque was $175.00 for the first month of pay.That was the first and only time I had so much money I didn't know what to do with it all. After that, I learned how to spend. For the first year I had to learn how to be a Drafts Clerk, a Ledger Keeper and a Teller. I would get a ride to work in the mornings by dad, and would catch the bus back home after work. I still lived at home with mom and dad in Redcliff.
Friday nights I would usually stay down in the Hat and take in a movie or whatever, then catch the late bus home. (Mom and dad went out Friday nights, so never had to worry about bed times.) One Friday night I wasn't doing anything, and things were kind of boring. So I wandered across the bridge and walked to the Kingdom Hall, where they were having Kingdom Ministry School. There they taught Public Speaking, and put on field service demonstrations, etc. I found it quite interesting, so started to attend regularly each Friday night. I enrolled, and started to learn public speaking (Audience contact, use of notes, gestures, subject theme emphasized, extemporaneous speaking, etc.). A number of them attended the Kingdom Hall who lived in Redcliff, and they offered to give me rides home after the meetings. After a while I started to attend Watchtower meetings on Sundays, and would get rides down to the Hall with one of the brethren in Redcliff. Then I started to attend Tuesday night bookstudies with Gerry N. and others in one of the homes. Gerry N's wife used to be active, but at a certain point decided she could not believe the teachings, and so became inactive. We became good friends, as we shared a love of music. Then I began attending Bible studies with Gerry N. on Wednesday nights. He was having these studies in the home of Brother M with his wife, a non-believer, and I simply joined them. These Bible studies were very intense. Even though they lasted only one hour, we would continue on and discuss for hours all of the various JW teachings and doctrines and bible prophesy, etc. It was like I was making up for lost time, and I'm sure Gerry N. didn't mind, because he got to report all that time on his "field service report.
The problem was, I was starting to come in at 11:00 p.m. and midnight Tuesday and Wednesday nights, while mom and dad went to bed at 10:00 p.m. Mom would lay there in bed, but would not go to sleep until after she heard the door open and me going into my bedroom. The next day, I would be given a lot of accusatory looks, because now mom was over-tired due to my coming home so late and "waking her up" when I came in the door. There would be complaints and lectures about coming in so late as well. However, now I was 18, and I was doing nothing wrong; just studying the Bible at some friends' place. I also had my own money, since I was now earning a living in a good steady job. The time for treating me like a kid was over, and she knew it. I became expert at opening the door completely silently. I knew every squeek in the floor, and how to avoid them. I could turn on the furnace with the thermostat, then sneak into the bedroom without being heard or detected. However, mom would still be miffed at that, because then she would have to stay awake even longer, and finally had to get up and check the bedroom to see if I had returned home. This was a "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" situation, and I detested it. I felt persecuted by mom's attitude, thinking this was all about the fact that she couldn't stand that I was studying with JW's. (On the other hand, it could have been that she just wanted me to be home and go to bed when she did, and I never could see that as a reasonable expectation.) The tension between us started to grow and grow, and there was a very negative atmosphere around the house. And yet, when my birthday came around in April 1963, and things were very bad between us, mom got me this beautiful briefcase that I needed to do field service with. I couldn't thank her enough, and I loved her for it, yet the tension between us still persisted.
I believe it was in July of 1963 that a Convention was being held in Medicine Hat. I was approached by one Brother Ted who asked if I would like to get baptized then. I was totally surprised, but then it also made a lot of sense to me since I felt I was ready to make the commitment. So I said "Yes." Then he asked me if I would mind if they put my name in the local newspaper, as they are doing an article on the Convention, in which they mention who was baptized on that occasion. I said "OK." since I couldn't see there would be any harm in that, and I thought the only ones who would be interested in reading about that would be other Witnesses. Boy, I could not have been more wrong! Also, I never said anything to mom and dad about getting baptized, as I just thought it was an internal religious matter, and mom and dad did not really want to talk about what goes on inside the JW activities. At the Convention that weekend, I along with a few others, rose and affirmed our dedication to Jehovah, and after that were driven to the Kingdom Hall where we were all baptized by immersion. And that was it. Now I was officially a JW.
Little did I know of the storm clouds that would now be looming over the horizon as a direct result of this baptism that was reported in the local newspaper. That will be covered in the next episode, where I will talk about my life as a JW and how I got married.
LOL
Rod P.
hi people!
i am new here, but started out on the topic of "high rates of depression in org.
" there are 3 posts, one of which has been pasted below on my new thread.
To: boy@crossroads:
When I was excommunicated from the Mormon Church, I most certainly am regarded and treated differently. They treat excommunication very seriously, and they see your eternal salvation as being lost, unless you repent. But it does not necessarily follow that they have to "Shun" you like the JW's do. Further, they would not be socializing with you either, and it you wanted to still be friends with them, they would certainly be councilling you to repent and consider coming back to the "True Church" and the Priesthood. Having been an Elder in the Mormon Church, if I wanted to get my Priesthood back, it would have to be restored by one of the Apostles of the Church, which is right up there at the top of the Church hierarchy based in Salt Lake City, Utah. I know of one who was excommunicated and then later came back to the Church. He got re-baptised, but still could not hold the Priesthood until he had it restored by one of the 12 Apostles of the Church. He waited until one of the Apostles visited the Ward where he attended, and while he visited, he met with the guy and re-conferred the Priesthood on him.
An excommunicated Mormon is allowed to attend Church, but is not allowed to partake of the sacraments.
You will find your visit to the Mormon Church very interesting, and the Mormons a very friendly people. They will treat you very kindly, and befriend you, and, of course, would love to send the Missionaries to your home and give you the Book of Mormon as a free gift, and start you in on their discussions. It is a very thorough and well-organized program to steer you in the direction of becoming a Mormon. The problem is not so much what they tell you, for a lot of it is often pretty easy to accept. The real problem is all of the stuff they DON'T tell you about, and that you may or may not even know or find out about until much later. That is where most of the X-Mormons come from, much later, given what they later discover is also part of their Church History and their Revelations, and become shocked and disillusioned.
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About the Giant Mushroom. I know of some of those fairy tales, and gnomes and elves, etc., but age 6 I had not heard of any of this stuff. But this was absolutely what happened. I did find a giant mushroom. I remember looking at it and wondering if I could eat it all myself. I thought it was enough to feed the whole family. And when the sprinkle of rain came, and that's all it was, I held that mushroom over my head like an umbrella. No, it did not cover my whole head. I just held it up, kind of like pretending it was an umbrella. It seemed so natural, and, of course, kids have a lot of imagination.
Regards!
rod p
hi people!
i am new here, but started out on the topic of "high rates of depression in org.
" there are 3 posts, one of which has been pasted below on my new thread.
Before I get into the next phase, I need to step back a few years and introduce a few other "threads" to this story. These are important elements for what comes later.
When dad remarried, and we got our new mom, we celebrated birthdays and Christmas, and Halloween, and all those things the JW's taught were bad and wrong and pagan in origin. Well, what kid doesn't like these things? After all, we get all these nice presents, get a lot of free stuff, and have lots of fun. Kids are not normally caught up in doctrinal arguments and other subtleties of logic and scriptural interpretation that adults do.
One day, in Grade 2, I lost a tooth. Mom told me to put the tooth under my pillow, and the fairy would come and take the tooth, and give me a quarter. That was exciting, so that's what I did. The problem was, at about 6:00 a.m. I was awake, and I saw my dad come into the bedroom. I closed my eyes and pretended to be asleep. I heard and felt my dad feeling around under my pillow for my tooth, and then I felt him put the quarter there. As he walked out of the room, I opened my eyes and saw him leave. Dad went to work. Then mom got us up for breakfast, and off to school. At the breakfast table I showed mom the quarter, and said that there was no tooth fairy because I saw dad do it. Mom seemed disappointed. That was the last quarter I got for losing a tooth. Should have kept my mouth shut!
Next was Halloween that same year. It was fun dressing up and going from door to door getting suckers and chocolate bars and popcorn balls and candied apples. Hey, this was great fun!
Next came Christmas, which really was our first Christmas. What an exciting time! The stockings were full of goodies and the presents were great, and there were so many gifts from all our aunts and uncles, and especially mom and dad. However, one of those presents did not appear under the tree until the next morning. It was a hockey game where you pulled these levers to make the men move, to shoot the puck down the "ice" and into the goals. The tag said it was "From Santa". Of course, we had been taught in the book studies that there was no such thing as Santa Claus, and it was all a myth. So me and my big mouth again, opens it and announces "There is no such thing as Santa! I think mommy and daddy got us this present". Mom argued that if I did not believe in Santa then we need to give this present back to him, since he does not exist. Well, we didn't want to lose out on this "best present", so reluctantly I said that I believed in Santa after all. I don't think this was one of my parents' proudest moments, but at the same time, they (especially mom) were simply trying to give their kids the experience of enjoying Christmas, which was really for the kids. It was not about doctrine and debate about pagan origins, and whether it was right or wrong. It was about kids having fun, and going thru the normal childhood experiences like all the other kids were doing. At the same time, it forced me to lie by saying "Yes, I believe in Santa," because if I didn't relent, and tell mom what she wanted to hear, then we would forfeit the gift. They taught me to lie that day. Anyway, that was the last time we had Christmas with Santa Claus, but we still continued to celebrate and have fun every Xmas.
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The kids in our neighborhood loved to play "Cowboys and Indians". Of course, my brother and I jumped right in there. My brother had this gun and holster set that could shoot caps (to make it go bang! bang! real loud). I seem to recall the set having a certain insignia on the pieces, such as "Hopalong Cassidy" or "Gene Autry". Remember those old Saturday afternoon matinees, where you paid fifteen cents for a movie, and ten cents for a bag of popcorn and a nickel for a pop? These Cowboy Westerns were all about the good guys chasing the bad, with Hopalong or Gene or Roy Rogers being the heroes. The Indians, of course, were often (but not always) depicted as the bad guys and as murdering savages who scalped the innocent settlers, etc. Of course, there was the Lone Ranger, with his loyal indian friend Tonto. But then there were movies about Indians who were heroes, and the white man was the bad guy, such as Cochise, Chief Sitting Bull, etc. Anyway, my brother was very proud of his gun and holster set.
We used to play this game of Cowboys and Indians in the giant park by the South Saskatchewan River, which went right thru the centre of the City of Medicine Hat. The river was wide and deep and swift, and people had drowned in there, when undercurrents pulled them down to the bottom. The Lions Club financed and built this park, which had lots of picnic spots, barbecue pits and the usual playground facilities and picnic tables. In one place there was a "Summerhouse" where games and activiites were organized and conducted and supervised during the summer months. Anyway, along the river banks of the park there were lots of willows and cottonwood trees, etc. This was an ideal place to play Cowboys (or Calvary) and Indians. Almost every kid wanted to be a cowboy or a soldier. Not me! I'd rather be an Indian any old day. I had my handy-dandy home-made bow and arrow set, and I could hide in the bushes and in the trees, wait for those cowboys to come along, and "Whoooosh...!" shoot them dead with my arrows. We had an understanding that if you got hit, you would have to fall down and pretend you were dead. With arrows, you knew you were hit, and depending on where the arrow hit, you knew if you were dead or wounded. With cap guns, or yelling "Bang! bang!, you're dead!", it was always debatable if the other guy was hit or not. "I hit you and you're dead!" "Am not; you missed!" "Are so!" "Am not!" Then I would come along and shoot them with my arrows. "There, you're both dead," I would tell them. With arrows, you always knew. But the best part was, they were silent and deadly!
One day there was a contest at the Summerhouse. The kids would all have to dress up in their own "Costumes" which had to be made up from their own "imaginations". They could not be "Store-bought". I dressed up like an Indian, with my homemade bow and arrow, headband with feathers, and a painted face. After all, I was an Indian at war, so I had to paint my face. Guess what. I won! I just loved being an Indian.
In the summertime I loved those parades with the Indian Chiefs and their full head-dresses, their beadwork and their horses. And I loved those pow wow drums! In school, I loved to read about Hiawatha, Chief Sitting Bull and others, and about tribes like the Ojibwe, Mohawk, Iroquoise, Crow, Blackfeet, Souix, Navaho, Apache, and others.
The City where I was growing up had an Indian name, "Medicine Hat". At one time they were going to name the place "Gasberg" because of all the gas deposits they had discovered under the ground. Boring! So someone did some research, and found out about an interesting Indian legend. The Blackfeet lived on one side of the South Saskatchewan River, while the Crow lived on the other side. A foot-bridge had been built across the river, but it was only wide enough for one person to cross at a time. One day the Chief from one tribe was walking across the bridge, while the Medicine Man from the other tribe was coming across from the other side. They met in the middle, and neither one was going to back down and be made to go back to the start. So they fought there in the middle of that bridge, and during the battle, the Medicine Man's hat was knocked off his head and into the river. That was when the Indian people called the spot "Medicine Hat".
Footnote: I know that in this day and age it is not "politically correct" to refer to these people as "Indians". Instead, they are currently referred to as "First Nations" people. However, I have used the word "Indian" in the historical context of the day, where that was how we all spoke of them as being "Indians".
I am telling you all this because later you are going to discover what a big part and influence all this has had on my life.
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The next thing I want to bring up is the subject of "Discipline and Spankings". As most of you already know, JW's are taught the concept of "Spare the rod, and spoil the child." This essentially comes from the book of Proverbs- 13:24 ; 22:15 ; 23:13,14 ; 29:15. This is often quoted and used as justification for spanking, even beating their kids. Unfortunately, all too often, discipline and punishment is unleashed on a small child out of anger or rage, rather than to teach a valuable lesson. The idea of a "Rod" has to do with a Shepherd and his Sheep. The Shepherd would use his Rod to guide his sheep to go in a certain direction, such as tapping on the side of the sheep to steer it a certain way. Sometimes a sheep would fall off a rock or trail, and would tumble into a crevice or hole and need to be rescued. The Shepherd would use his Rod or Staff, that was curved at one end, to reach down with the staff and "hook" the sheep by the neck, and then drag it out of the hole to rescue it. It may have been painful, being pulled by a Rod around the neck, but it also saved its life. In other words, I think the teaching has been wrongly interpreted and used over the years to justify and give parents the license to inflict harsh beatings and cruel punishment on their children, because they think the scriptures authorize this kind of treatment. These parents think they are "teaching their children a lesson" and they are right, except that it is the wrong kind of lesson. Those beatings may result in terrifying the kids into obedient behaviour, because they would now fear that it may happen to them again if they repeated the offense. However, all this really teaches them is to fear their parents, rather than to love and trust them. They learn how to lie out of self-preservation, and sneak around so as not to get caught the next time. And the older they get, the more sophisticated they become at this game. There are usually one of two responses that are the outcome: 1) Flight or 2) Fight. If a child is predisposed to the Flight Response, brutalizing that child can absolutely destroy his/her self-esteem, and he/she will grow up timid and unassertive, because they feel so powerless over their own lives. They hesitate to take initiative, always seeking permission to do something, or to express an opinion about something, or even to feel a certain way, because they do not want to incur disapproval from the other guy. If a child is predisposed to the Fight Response, this kind of physical punishment creates only hostility and anger, and they will usually fight back or rebel. Often these kids turn into the "bullies on the block", and they grow into angry young adults. When those kids get bigger, where they can then physically handle themselves, they will often turn on their parents.
Having said this, I want to comment about how my brother and I were raised. I said earlier that when my dad disciplined us, including spankings, we did not feel brutalized or fearful of him. On the other hand, he was not the one who did most of the disciplining. Our new mom did that. And she came from a certain British/Welsh background which culturally was very disciplinarian by nature. It was considered "the norm". Also, children should be seen and not heard. I believe that mom was well-meaning, but that that was how she was raised, and it was never considered wrong or harsh, and should not be questioned. And if that was how they were raised, then when they grew up, it was their turn to raise their kids the same way. That, I believe, is what happened.
After that first spanking by our "new mom", it did not take very long for spankings to become the norm. Mom inheritated these two boys who were fighting and biting and scratching each other. To teach us not to fight, she took each of our hands and bit them really hard. Boy that hurt! But we stopped that biting and scratching pretty darn fast, because if we didn't, we knew she would bite us again. Instead, we found the best way to fight was to tattle-tail on each other, and then let mom inflict the punishment. That was how to get even with your brother. After awhile, we made a pact. If you don't tell mom that I did such and such, then I won't tell mom that you did so and so. We had this little mental "black book" that we kept on each other, where all of the bad things we did were on this list. Because our respective lists of "bad deeds" got rather long, it was a pretty scary thing to contemplate what would happen if "my brother told this whole list to mom"- the consequences would be devastating. It was like the "Cold War" where the Americans and the Russians had this policy of M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). Both sides had the "nuclear bomb", and if one used it on the other, then the other one could retaliate with the same weapons, and if they ever did, both sides would be equally destroyed. This is what kept the "Balance of Terror" so that each side was too scared to use it on the other. This was the game my brother and I were playing, and our MOM was the weapon!
Growing up, we used to steal crab apples from other people's yards. This was during the summer holidays, when the cab apples got ripe. We had bicycles, so we could travel a pretty big neighborhood, and also escape very quickly. We got caught a lot. This included mom discovering lumps in our pant pockets, and upon enquiring what they were, she knew we had been stealing. After awhile, "spanking" became our middle name. Once, my brother got caught when the police were involved, and he and dad had to go down to the police station and meet the chief of police. The chief took my brother to a jail cell and showed him that this was where kids who steal end up. That was a pretty scary experience for him, and I thought about it vicariously. When they got home, dad punished him further by taking the screws out of his favorite toy gun so that it lay in pieces, and then took a leather knife and cut up his belt and holster into a bunch of little pieces, and then made him take it out to the garbage and dispose of it. My brother was heart-broken, while I looked on. I think that kind of ended our desire to steal crab apples.
As the years went by, a lot of other things took the place of stealing, which had mostly to do with disobeying the rules. Mom had a lot of rules that we kids thought were ridiculous or unreasonable. For example, in Grade 2 our bed-time was something like 6:00 p.m. After one year (Grade 3) we got to stay up until 6:30. A year later it became 7:00 pm. At this rate, by the time I was in Grade 10, bed-time was 10:00 pm. It stayed at 10:00 pm. all thru high school, because that was when mom and dad went to bed. For years we had been arguing with mom that other kids our wage got to stay up, and even play outside, long past the hours we had to live by. Her response was that that was how other kids got into trouble and went on to commit crimes. I didn't see how that would be possible if we got to stay up, but inside the house. Also, because my brother was one grade behind me in school, he got to stay up that half-hour one year earlier than I. That wasn't fair, I thought! The real truth of all this was that making kids go to bed early was a good way to get them "out of your hair". And when you go to bed at 10:00 pm., you don't want to have the kids up making a noise so you can't sleep. This was all about convenience and control, and little or nothing to do with our welfare at heart.
As we got older, the spankings got harder. They progressed to leather straps, plastic hair brushes (including spanking with the stiff bristles), wooden spoons, fly swatters and belts with metal buckles. They were not limited to the derrier. Sometimes it became random swinging, and it didn't matter where it landed. My brother chose the Flight option. When mom came at him with a wooden spoon, for example, he took off running around the house. As he ran, he would duck into the bathroom, with mom right on his tail. As she swung at him with the spoon, he would duck, and the spoon would break over the bathtub and break in two. That would end the spanking. I can't count how many wooden spoons were broken. By the age of 16, I was ready to rebel, and even leave if necessary. We got very few spankings after that, but certainly lots of lectures on behavior, which added up to a lot of nagging and screaming as far as I was concerned.
Suffice it to say, these discipinary actions left their marks on each of us. For me it has been a lengthy process over many years, but I learned forgiveness. I love mom, and forgive her, and have moved on. (I can forgive, but I can't forget.) I just think that mom has had issues with her short-temper" and lack of anger management. It was about control at all costs. This is an issue that has continued long past childhood. And yet, there were many good times too, and mom has revealed herself as being loving and kind-hearted and fair-minded. In recent times, there were circumstances where I don't know what I could have done without her. She is also very ticked off with the JW policy of disfellowshipment and how they treat people, and how so many JW marriages she has known have ended in failure and divorce. She is my MOM!
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Now I am ready to move on to the next episode, where I become a fully-commited JW.
Rod P.
